Is there a way we can set up some MM lobbies like the Inhouse lobbies?

It can be very frustrating if you are someone with ~50 wins who is new to the genre and you are grouping up with people who have ~400 wins. I am not saying all of the lobbies should be this way, but it would be a nice option for someone who is coming on here looking for other people of a similar skill level and find themselves in a group and a game where they are so outmatched that it ceases to be a learning experience and is just too punishing for newer players.

Maybe some channels like:
MM, Low Skill
MM, Medium Skill
MM, High Skill
MM, Misc
MM, Misc
MM, Misc

So that there is at least an option for people looking for relative skill-level games.

For example, I would say I am about medium skill. If no one I know is on, I might want to jump into the medium skill lobby. If I were to jump in a group where everyone was having fun, but a low skill group, the way MM works would pull them up to "my level," potentially ruining the fun of the people in that group. Conversely, if I jumped into a high skill group, I'd drag the rest of the team down - something maybe my friends put up with (I hope ), but not something a bunch of people I've just met may want to put up with!

Concerns are, of course, that this could kind of "stratify" us. My counterargument might be that we are chasing away cool people who may be too intimidated or otherwise just not having fun playing with people who call themselves "noobs," but are actually quite skilled at the game. It seems we've grown a lot, so it may be harder for a lot of the newer people to benefit from, say, some of the hand-holding that I got and definitely benefited from just because there are so many people coming in and getting lost in the mix, or the veterans are just tired / want a break from being Dota Teacher all the time. I don't know, it's kind of rambly - I wouldn't want to pull the ladder up behind me, so to speak, either.

Does anyone have any ideas / input / etc?

I think there's a lot of valid points here. I like the idea!

There are indeed a lot of valid points here. However, I am against doing this right now. I also consider myself medium skill (sometimes lower depending on the day ), and it can be frustrating to play with both people who are very above you and people who are less experienced.

I know when I first started playing, I played with Shane and Gambit a lot, so I was consistently thrown into a higher skill bracket. This helped my game a lot, even if I lost or had a bad game a decent amount of the time.

I don't think we should create skill level channels because it might intimidate someone into not jumping in to say hello because they don't they're skilled enough or are too skilled. I, and the other admins, have no problems setting up temporary channels if you want to play a few games with just a few friends of your skill level, that you're teaching/learning from, etc. I think that might be a better road to take.

The big thing is, when you see someone who has the little "new" next to their name, go out of your way to say hi and ask them about their skill level. Get to know them and if you think they're pretty new tell them, hey this group has a bunch of people with 400+ wins, the game is going to be really rough.

In the end, I don't know what the right answer is. I just don't want to turn people away because they might be less experienced with the game.

I understand what you're saying fallen, that the skill brackets can be rather subjective as to what level you 'think' you are. There's a number of you that still believe you're low-medium that when newbies like myself join a game are wondering if you've even seen yourselves play! Perhaps then, we could do it by number of games played in dota 2? <250, <500, <1000, etc.? That way, you've still got differences in skill level, but it's not going to be affected by modesty as such - and if people still want to group up with their friends, they are more than welcome to do so. It just gives an objective rating based on how long you've been playing the game, not how good you think you are.

I will say that I agree with Kree, and I thank her for posting this. One of the reasons I've been solo queuing more recently and playing less with the doobs has nothing to do with the members of the community (you're all fabulous and really welcoming!), it's to do with the brackets I get thrown into during MMing. Either it's a game where 4 people play amazingly well, and my job is to follow them around, land a stun and try not to fuck the game up for everyone else; or, I play in the higher brackets, and it's effectively 5v4 (and the giant baby they're caring for). In the former situation, I feel like I've not contributed to the win at all, and in the latter I feel like I've cost the team the game. This could enirely be due to low self esteem, but I doubt I'm the only newbie out there to feel like this.

Fair point. I guess my experience was different. When I was playing with the seasoned DotA vets, I enjoyed the higher MMR since it forced me to get better. I can understand where it would make some people uncomfortable.

That being said, Bandit, you don't ever fuck the game up for anyone! I've always had fun when I play with you, win or lose, so never feel like you can't just join a game.

Bandit, I definitely had you in mind when I made the post, as our discussion is kind of what got this idea percolating in the first place. It is interesting to hear both your and Fallen's perspective on this, since at different points I agree with both of you. I also have Mr. Kree in mind in this post. We both started playing at the same time, but I've had waaaaaay more time to play than he has, so we are now in two different skill sets at the moment. He doesn't have tons of time to play, so when he does I like it to be a positive experience for him - one in which he has a chance to do well and be the Badass on his team on occasion. I know he'd be much more open to jumping on Teamspeak without me around if he didn't feel like he was completely out of his element. I am not saying different skill-level lobbies have to be officially enforced, but I think the option would make a lot of people more comfortable.


Don't get me wrong, I also love playing with everyone, but I, too, have found myself solo-queueing for the same reasons Bandit has. Sometimes it feels like everyone is frustrated with me because I'm not at their level, or even when the game is going well, it is because they are 4 v. 5ing. Other times, I have been in a 1 or 2 position, but I am getting 4 or 5 position farm because I think, subconsciously if not consciously, the people I am playing with don't think I'm up to the task - so I never get the chance. I, too, like to be the one melting faces, occasionally, or at least not be assumed to be the worst on the team.


I absolutely love playing with the people I am playing with 80% of the time and I'm glad they put up with me, but I'd like to have a chance to play some games where I'm not just being "put up with" occasionally, and I'm not the only one. I am also very thankful for being able to play with better players because it really has improved my gameplay a ton - it would just be nice if the structure created an environment that didn't require solo-queues to get into MMing on my level. (EDIT: What I mean here is that if there were the option for skill-level groups where we are going into the group with that intent. If you just create groups with the intent to keep it to a similar skill level without the structure to back it up, if someone were to come who wanted a spot, but wasn't in that skill level it could feel to them like they are being excluded. If there were channels, it would send a signal that we are going into the group with X skill level in mind and that that is the point. The majority of the MM channels could still be skill level neutral.)


There has also been the unfortunate thing I've seen happening where someone brand new comes on and they're playing in a group that is full, but then another higher skill and more known player comes on and one person leave the previously full group to break into squadrons, which is fine, but then the whole group reforms minus the new person. This has happened a few times and I think it would happen less if there were a "skill bracket" option.


I am not saying we'll fall apart if this doesn't happen, but I'd hope for a bit more debate before shelving the idea.

Kree, I'm swamped with a friend from out of town visiting. Let's talk about it more tomorrow during inhouses? Does that work?

It's not urgent! Just wanted to get the idea out there.

I don't think the idea should be shelved at all, and if there are any members of the group reading this, please speak up and let us know what you think about this. After all, one of the brilliant things about Dota Noobs is that it appeals to all players - new, experienced, the good, the bad, and the Shanes of the world

I wouldn't want to leave anyone feeling excluded from MMing, and I'll repeat myself to clarify that the Doobs community is one of the nicest places I've found in Dota. Everyone here is lovely, friendly and really welcoming. The concerns I've voiced have nothing to do with members, but instead reflect upon general feelings of swimming out of my depth with the bigger fishes.

The system I mentioned earlier (brackets based on number of games played - wins or losses) would also encourage play with more of the doobs community, getting to know newer Doobs in your bracket and integrating them into the community easier. From personal experience with HoN, I was dragged by 'friends' into player games before I had even heard of a MOBA, and when I failed was shouted at repeatedly for fucking up. The whole 3 day experience I had on the HoN Beta was filled with confusion and feeling like I was shockingly awful. Whilst I know that this community is far more forgiving and teaching for new players, I do worry that putting new Doobs in with the high-end Doobs is going to end up with a similar head trip for them. Perhaps it would be easier for them to be paired with people nearer their level to begin with? With of course, the option of the coaching systems and university that the site is building up as well.

I agree with kree on this.
I did get kinda "burned" out on dota after "teaching" 80% of games for a month or so. I think this will be good though, if new people would like to play with the higher skilled players they ofcourse just hop in to that channel and if they feel like playing with people on their level they can as well.

I see nothing wrong with this!

Been speaking to everyone on TS and maybe a lobby with wins rather than skill bracket so like one with 0-100 one with 100-200 and one with 200-300 and 300+ or something like that. This could help some people out me thinks

From a personal perspective I totally understand the idea behind wanting skill/win based lobbies on the TS3 server. I find myself solo-queuing often enough for the same reasons some of you have mentioned above. So I agree this idea has some merit and we should try and find a way to create this environment (the In-house channels already have a skill-level, not that it's really enforced).

From an administrative perspective I think it's really easy for lower skilled (especially if new to the community) players to get left behind. KreeJaffaKree's example in >>5721 fits this bill, or someone saying "I'm comfortable with heroes 'X, Y, Z'" and then end up having to play hero W solo top. Even if this is the exception and not the norm it's exactly what we hope to avoid here at DN, and we should do everything possible to discourage this type of behavior and create a comfortable gaming environment for everyone.

I feel like even having a "High Skill" or "500/1000+ wins" room is going to be intimidating to a new user, especially if that's where everyone else happens to be at the time. What if we have a low-skill channel-group (maybe call it "The Training Yard"?) under which could exist a single IH room and 2-3 MM lobbies for just this kind of thing and/or coaching (when I say channel group I mean like the "General Gaming" heading that has sub-channels). This could appear directly below the "Lobby" and be the first thing people would notice.

Just an idea. Thank you KreeJaffaKree for bringing this up as it seems to be a fairly widespread concern and feedback like this is the only way we can improve the DotaNoobs experience for everyone involved. Let's continue to discuss and (hopefully) get input from other members and see what we can come up with. Please encourage your friends on TeamSpeak to come make their voices heard.

We've (the admins) discussed things like this internally a few times but the big sticking point is that the metrics for how good someone is at Dota can be pretty hard to judge. There is a lot discussion going on behind the scenes about how best to transition our veteran players into a more organized and competitive arena while still keeping things fun and interesting for the new players. One idea we've been playing with, is creating a bowling league type of setup where people create their own teams and sign up for a few weeks of games which would concluded in a tournament. This wouldn't take the place of Sunday in houses or random match making but would allow the players to dictate who they are playing with vs a randomized team. We wanted to wait till our new site was done before moving on to those plans but I suspect you will be hearing about some more competitive DN events in the week or so. Stay tuned!

Just from experience, although mixing tiers is frustrating or could sometimes end in a stomp.. its those frustrating games that you end up learning something. Not to sound cliche because i dont like doing that! But its up to you to figure out what you learn from that game. Like Sal, Tenenbrae, Salean, Sneeky, and Myself played a game a few nights ago. win wise we're all over the map but its the fact that people que as five. When you que as 5 the MM system tries to pair you up with another group of 5 even if it means your going outside your MMR range. Anyhoo i digress. That game we got our skulls bashed in. But during the game we at least were able to figure out on the fly what we should have been doing or how we should have laned differently. This is a horrid example but i think you get the idea. Que as 5, youre gonna get a 5 even if its outside your MMR range. The game has to balance your Win ratio to 50% somehow

Can't wait to see what you guys come up with.

bottom line is we want everyone to be comfortable and have a good time when coming to DN. Any changes we make, we need input from the community on. Anytime you see a change of some kind, let us know if it's good or bad. The more input we get the more changes we can make. This is truly a community driven group and we value everything you guys tell us.

I understand what you're saying about the higher tiered players Alv, but I think this thread is more aimed at the newer players to integrate them into what is an already unfriendly learning curve to the game. Yes, I agree with Atlas and the others on this thread that have mentioned the lessons you learn during games where you are out of your depth, but this is why the idea I mentioned in the second post about a "number of games played" or "wins" bracket could be a 'standard practice' mming system, but nothing would be binding. Friends will still MM with friends, and as we've seen many a time in TS, if you're a person down in a group, someone goes around spamming the other channels for that last person needed, or whatever.

Whilst we're on the subject of 'learning things from stomps' I'll just add from my own perspectives of when I was *completely* new to DotA, that no, there wasn't the epiphany that can come from stomps when you're more familiar with the game. At an early stage in learning what the heck a last hit is, all you learn (very painfully) is that there are (many) people who are better at the game than you are. Heck, 600 hours into playing dota and I *still* have games where I end up frustrated as hell from a loss where I believe I've given my absolute all, and been beaten into a pulp.

Perhaps I've not communicated well enough the target audience to which my ideas were based on; I'm specifically thinking of people new to DotA in itself, and people new to the Doobs community. Having a games played/wins based bracket system will allow more structure for new people to the teamspeak chat than "Come down into any channel and say hi", which as we've seen, some new doobs will sit on their own in a channel waiting to be invited rather than impose upon a fuller channel. As Kree mentioned, if there's brackets directly below the lobby channel (ie. right there within view), people can hop down into the channel they're at, and get a group together. For people looking for a final person for MMs, it would also be much more apparent what level the individual is going to be playing at. For example, if there are 4 people looking for a 5th for MMing, all with 500+ wins, and they decide to invite a newer player sitting in a <50 wins channel to their group, there is an implied notion that the other 4 members will have to factor the individual's new-ness into account when playing with them.

If, as Alv mentioned above, there will also be more focus on higher end players getting competitive teams together, or even randomly mixed teams across the community, that's great as well. But I think that that method alone will do less for the integration of new players than a bracket system would, though again, this is my (highly biased) opinion (due to my own low skill bracket).

I think the Sunday inhouses are great for encouraging good laughs, and learning experiences for all doobs, experienced or otherwise, and I really enjoy IH experience. My suggestions are to coincide with IHs and aim to make the transition for players at the bottom of the learning curve easier as they progress. I think the site is already well on its way (with the university, coaching systems and general friendliness and willingness to help from the senior and admin members) to becoming a substantial part of the dota community. I'm just thinking of making the first steps a little less daunting for us noobs

Bandit and Kree, I hear you. So let's try 2 experiments and see which one works better. The first one I want to try is to create 2 -3 lobbies with ">150 games won" in the titles. This is for newer players who want to experiment at a lower matchmaking level. High level players can join this lobby as long as they are the only higher level player and join with the understanding that they are there to give advice and help teach the others. I'll also make one of these an IH channel.

In two weeks we'll flip it, I'll make the channel <150 wins. In here, you're expected to know what you're doing for the most part. You can ask questions, but it is more competitive in nature. Obviously newer players can join, but it will be with the understanding that your hand is not going to be held. Creep stacking, blocking, warding, etc should all be expected and not constantly reminded about.

From here we can decide which way worked better, or which we think will work better after some changes are made.

What does everyone think?

I think that's a good start, Fallen, and I look forward to seeing some of the newer members in that lobby! I would like to point out that it may look highly hypocritical of me to suggest these changes, and upon their implementation be suspiciously absent from TS, but my time on Dota until February will be scant at best, as I've 4 pieces of coursework (24,000 words in total) to write this month - of which I've yet to begin researching 3/4 xD

But I'm looking forward to seeing what will work best for the group

Consider this implemented. When you come back and have more time, let's talk about more ideas you have for integrating newer people.