Sorry guys, I've been awol from the forums for a while (I forgot they were back up). The Q&A to inhouse game sounds like a great idea, I definitely have some (probably dumb) questions to ask. You can count me in for sunday. Although, I'm not sure I still fall into the new player catagory, I would still like to participate.

Under 150 wins, still new. Under 250, still noob. Over these numbers, we'll talk . jk

Fantastic. I'm going to milk my noob status for all its worth, prepare for questions! It's such an odd concept to me that DotA is a game where 400+ hours played can still mean you're new. Not that I'm complaining and I'm still laughably bad at SC2 despite how much I used to play that.

Questions are a fantastic thing here, so don't we worried about feeling like you might be pestering. Keep in mind that we intend to keep these little learning opportunities as a regular thing, so if you think of a moot point after the time is up, there's always next week (or feel free to message one of us, if it can't wait).

The thought behind all of this is equip you, as much as we're able, to be out there crushing skulls and ruffling feathers to the best of your abilities.



Don't worry about that Skyop, we've already got a steady plan in motion as to how we can structure the sesion. All you need to do is turn up, questions at the ready, and be prepared to punch the internet in the name of Doob.

I'd also like to echo what Fallen's already said about this weeks topic - supporting. I'm sure you all have plenty of questions regarding other aspects of the game, but during this team try to keep it to what we've said. Anything other than that, feel free to contact FallenElf, UnoPolak, Admiral Snuffles or Shane and we'll be happy to help you outside of our timeslot.

I'd also like to request that you come to the session with an open slate - that is to say, some of the things we'll chat about may contradict your current view on the game. We'll be happy to justify our various choices, however.



FOR SCIENCE! *Pipe*

Unfortunately 19:00 Gmt on Sunday will make it 6am Monday for me so i will not be able to make it. Have fun guys

Ah shit, you're in Australia I take it? We will work something out soon to accomodate you too. We don't want to leave anyone out.

I should be on TS Friday night and most of Saturday if you have any questions then.

Yep Australia, there has always got to be one difficult one and this time its me

Hmm Steve, we'll try to come up with times that will work better in the future, but we're going to record the Q&A so you'll be able to listen, as wel.l as the ensuing match. Let's you and I or Snuffles and you work out a time for some 1 on 1 coaching to make up for missing the first week. That sound good?

I can be there I think. Sundays are good with me. As a pre-question, for lack of a better term, would it be good to talk about basics and go over that quickly before hopping into support specific questions?

Yeh no probs sounds good

Its gonna 3AM for me so I'll be missing it too

Sorry about that. We are going to work out a good time for out international players as well. If you know some vets that have a better timezone then get them on and we could get them to help out.

Long post alert

I think I have a general grasp on supporting. Here are some of the guidelines I've gathered over all my reading/playing/watching. Skyop, this might be helpful for you if you're really just asking for basics of support. The other skilled players feel free to correct and mistakes.
- Buy courier/wards. You really don't have an excuse of not getting one or another. i.e. get Courier if no one got it yet, get wards if courier is taken, or if you know for sure you need to ward.
- Salve, typically used on a carry you're babysitting. Remember that salve gets cancelled by attacks, so don't salve while your carry is up front creeping/susceptible to enemy attack
- Clarity Potions if you're an MP deficient hero and/or need to spam your abilities early
- Ward up runes for rune control. Try to ward at positions that provide cover from potential ganks too. If you're offlane, ward the enemy NC camp to prevent them from pulling. If they have a jungler, ward for potential ganks.
- Towards the later part of the game, ward the cliff depending on whether you're winning or losing.
- If your team tries to gank, and you see the enemy backing up really early, they probably got you warded, so go counter ward.
- Don't auto-attack - pushes creep wave unnecessarily. Don't fight for CS if your carry is there.
- Stack camps.
- Pull when the creep wave is going too far away for your carry to safely gain experience. Use pull as an opportunity to gain experience/CS if no one else is trying to get it from the NCs.
- Deny your creeps to prevent unnecessary pushing of creep wave/keeping creep equilibrium.


I think that's in general for laning (excluding ganks). I feel like I got this part grasped well. In teamfights
- If you have initiating spells, signal to your team mates, go in cast it, and back the hell away.
- If not, use your support items, use your abilities after the fight is initiated, and go on the squishiest/disabler
However, here are my main questions:

1. In principle all the above sounds great, but it starts to go out of the window when you get ganked/outlaned horrible during laning phase. I understand in part sometimes this is due to bad hero selection in response to the enemy team selection or just bad lane match ups. You never get back lane control, and you and your lane partner (hopefully NOT a carry) are therefore screwed for the rest of the game, effectively losing/getting stomped in most pub cases.

2. When teamfighting/ganking phase starts, because you've been conscientiously doing all your support stuff, (either i'm doing it wrong) I always for certain seemed to be under-leveled (more so compared to the enemy carry). This puts me at risk of being the target of potential ganks (when warding, which shouldn't happen) or just being straight up targeted first during team fights before you can get any of your key team fights spells in. Typically I find that the enemy carry can just pick me off instantly. Is that okay/right? Towards the later parts, you no longer can safely farm NCs if towers are down and you continually become the target of kill, and you "feed". I know that its ok as long the trade is worth it (i.e. your death becomes an unofficial initiation which leads to the enemy carry death)

3. Following up from the previous questions, because of the nature of being a support, and being not able to carry, the end game result is typically dependent on the quality of your team's carry. If they got free farm/babysit but still did not get crucial items before team fight phase, or have zero communication (like in most pubs), any (if any) advantage quickly gets lost when the opponent team has more carry potential and your team refuses to capitalize on an early advantage or (worse) you go on with the rest of the game fighting a disadvantage, losing early towers and just straight out turtling. If you're against an equally mediocre opponent team, the match drags up to 50+ minutes just waiting for the eventuality of your loss. I feel like for many of these pub games, its essentially a gamble on which sides has the more skilled carry/ganker. (and I've been on both sides, although more so on the losing side)

I'm at about 90+ games, at around a 1:1 win lose ratio. Lately, I've basically just tried to co-op bot random to learn more heroes so that I know what I'm dealing with against my enemy line ups even if I want to play support. Wow, that's way longer than I expected.

Koppen, I'm going to do a few quick amendments:

1. Buy sentry wards. Dewarding at the start of the match is incredibly crippling to the other team.

2. Tango and GG branches. Buy them. Tangos are the most cost efficient heal in the game. GG branches give +1 to ALL ATTRIBUTES, again the most cost effective item in the game. Salves and clarities, yes buy them, only 1 salve and usually 1-2 clarities, if you can afford them, but always grab Tangos and branches.

3. Ward Positions- we'll go over this on Sunday. Early game, mid game, late game, defensive, etc.

4. Deny creeps. I think around 15-20 denies gives you a level advantage. If you're not denying, you should be putting yourself in position to harass the enemy without aggro-ing the enemy creep wave too much. For each last hit an enemy carry gets you should be able to get: 1 harass hit on enemy ranged heroes or 2 on enemy melee heroes.

5. Double stack the pull camp. Don't triple stack. Don't single pull, unless you're trying to push the lane. Deny your creeps in the pull, last hit the neutrals.

6. Supports are strongest early, take advantage of this. Know your enemy's abilities.

There's a ton more to go over. A good support can win games. Come Sunday with questions!

Alright Q&A channel is up. See you guys in a bit.

For anyone that missed the Q&A, fallen made a stream which I'm sure he will put a link to here once he gets to it. It covers our discussion as well as a quick game we played and all the commentary I hope. Keep checking in for the date of next Q&A and on what topic it will be on.

Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgf6TAZ2PLI

Sorry for the static image while we were talking, will fix that next time .

Lots of great questions from Skyop and Miggly. The game after was pretty helpful, but having another new person in might have been a bit more productive since medium bots aren't too tough . Great job in the game though.

Thanks again for the Q&A Fallen,Lemon, and Snuffles. Very useful to practice what we learned, though I still have a long way to go. I hope some more people can jump in on the next one.

What are we thinking should be the next topic/focus? I, for one, would like to improve on mid or solo laning (rune control, ganking, aggression, etc.). Sometimes I'll end up in mid based on my hero (I like to queue SD or AR), and I'm generally weak at it.

Sure, we can talk about mid heroes.